Transgender Bathroom Debate

Don't ask for special treatment. Equal treatment. What's the "good reason" gendered toilets exist? Only encourages ultimately unfounded fears. You'd be uncomfortable in a unisex bathroom? Ah I see. How thoughtless of me and my desire for equality. Fuck it, don't wanna make things harder on cisgender men, god knows they've got it bad going out in public!

No, not idiotic to immediately treat a child with restrictive expectations based on what you think fits when it may be they won't. Give them a fair shake at figuring out what they like. The "wait for my kid to tell me he's a boy" part is just dumb and purposely missing the point. Call him a boy, do whatever but if he goes on (and this can indeed occur quite young) to dislike hid name or prefers "girl stuff" or a bit of both or prefers hanging with girls or gets on well with *children*, maybe don't discourage and redirect those preferences.

That last paragraph is raw ignorance, that shows a lack of familiarly with the realty of how many trans/gender non-conforming people/kids there are out there, doesn't account for those stats inherently being lower than the reality due to data bias, factors like the fact so many people are afraid to come out, speak up, can't etc. "Born in the wrong body" is an outdated concept that is borne of cisgender "understanding" of trans people. Cis people who've never had a real conversation with an actual transperson. Oh indeed,why should any parent prepare for the possibility of their child not being exactly what THEY want, and why should any parent desire a trans kid? Better to shut it all out, raise them strictly, ignore/deflect/encourage ignorance when they ask queslmtions that suggest they may be in some way "different" and pray like hell they don't grow into fucked up depressed teens, affected deeply and irreparably by a parent's restricting them and making them grow in a direction that isn't beneficial to their mental health or interpersonal development.

My dad was raised that way. I was too. Sheltered. Discouraged from what felt good for me. Worked out great, I assure you. Been to the brink of suicide as a teen, the worst of my depression came from lack of being able to express or even put words to what I felt inside, and my father and I? Well, I guess *techncially, literally* we "talk". He calls me the old name and doesn't know anything at all about me. You now know infinitely more than he. He tells my mom he still loves me. He does not respect me.I do not need such "love". This is NOT an uncommon tale. 99%? Just... no.

Paige, it sucks that you and some others have had to live that way. But I have to agree with Rhys on the kid thing, if I have a son I'll treat him as a male until he tells me otherwise. I'll assume he's straight until he tells me otherwise. If my son were going through any of these things, how would a father even know that if they were really young? I don't think a 8 year old is gonna come our and say he's a girl or he thinks he's a girl. But once he figured it all out I'd accept it, but wouldn't let him do anything about it until he's 18. I would like to have him take that time until he's 18 to really figure out who he identifies with.

I think we are looking way to far deep into this whole issue though. Those aren't the types of thoughts kids usually deal with when they are young. Lol. They just wanna build sandcastles and stuff. Also you guys should argue with out calling each other ignorant and using the words stupid and idiotic haha. It'll go south real fast

18 is too late for a child who's already identifying trans prior to puberty. There out there, in droves. You'd make your child go through the pain and heartbreak of the wrong puberty and all that it entails because of some presumed age cutoff for when an individual knows who they are in terms of gender identity? I assure you the kid will know full well what's best for them long before you do and if they're properly educated about transitioning will want puberty blockers to put off puberty til they're 100% sure whether medical (hormones or steroids depending) and/or (eventually) surgical if they so feel it necessary.

How about not presuming your child anything and learning about them as you raise them, answer their questions, encourage the things they feel good doing and use some context to determine how to proceed with later developments? Kids are only blank slates at the get go. They form personalities and hobbies fast and if you presume over any aspect of their young identity, you run the risk of falling into the trappings that encumber our preconceived notions of what comes with "being straight" and being gender compliant and so on. Encourage happiness first, positive interaction and if they happen to line up to your vision, cool. Protip: the more presumptions / expectations you have in place, the more pressure (even subconsciously) you're gonna place on the child. Inform, educate, interact, encourage. There are things you can safely guide. There are muddy waters. Tread wisely.

I'll just note at this point that I feel I've said basically all I can reasonably say without repeating myself or losing my cool. Also, that this had been an incredibly hard month and emotions are running high, all trans-related things aside. Well, most. So indeed, I've not been as civil as I can. One must nonetheless realize how close this is to me and how much it hurts to have seen so much backlash all over any social media site or forum, all over whether it's okay for trans people to go piss or shit in a restroom without being harassed, shamed, treated unequal and spoken of as a security risk. Meanwhile, in thr reported instances something has happened involving trans folk in public restrooms, it's invariably trans people being harassed or, in a couple i read about, beaten. All that the debate has proven is that society still has a long way to go til trans people are treated equally. Which literally everyone already knew anyway. Probably won't see it in my lifetime even if I live to 100. Not for real. Just on paper. By the way:
http://www.seventeen.com/life/school/ne … bathrooms/  (from 2015)

Last edited by Pilgrim Paige (Fri-27-May-2016 20:30:15)

You said a lot and I'm going to respond as I feel I should. But I don't think I have anything else to say on the matter past this.

Don't ask for special treatment. Equal treatment. What's the "good reason" gendered toilets exist? Only encourages ultimately unfounded fears. You'd be uncomfortable in a unisex bathroom? Ah I see. How thoughtless of me and my desire for equality. Fuck it, don't wanna make things harder on cisgender men, god knows they've got it bad going out in public!

What makes your feelings any more important than mine? Because your trans? You seem to think that non-trans people owe trans people something, as if every single one of us has been campaigning against trans people. The fact is, there are people who discriminate against trans people, but the majority of people I know at least don't. In fact, in this day and age, I find there are way more people accepting of others from all walks of life than there are people against it. Yes, it sucks that trans people get a hard time, but that doesn't mean my life has to get any less enjoyable for your sake.

What's the good reason for gendered toilets existing? Men are men and women are women. You can throw as many labels at me as you want, and I completely believe you that there are people who identify with every single one, but it still doesn't change the fact that the very large majority of humans identify themselves in the bodies they are born in. This is a universally accepted "standard" for genders since most people fit into either one of the two categories. Obviously, there are exceptions, and yes, we should accommodate to those exceptions and treat them the same but I don't see how making everyone not-trans uncomfortable (in unisex toilets) in one of the most private part of their daily lives is an acceptable substitute.

No, not idiotic to immediately treat a child with restrictive expectations based on what you think fits when it may be they won't. Give them a fair shake at figuring out what they like. The "wait for my kid to tell me he's a boy" part is just dumb and purposely missing the point. Call him a boy, do whatever but if he goes on (and this can indeed occur quite young) to dislike hid name or prefers "girl stuff" or a bit of both or prefers hanging with girls or gets on well with *children*, maybe don't discourage and redirect those preferences.

You say this now, and I agree with it all. Your original post wasn't this lenient on the issue though and it made it sound like you were saying you should refer to your boy as a "child" not a "boy". Of course, my son can play with whatever toys he wants, like what colours, TV shows, music, whatever he wants. So in terms of that, we are in agreement.

That last paragraph is raw ignorance, that shows a lack of familiarly with the realty of how many trans/gender non-conforming people/kids there are out there, doesn't account for those stats inherently being lower than the reality due to data bias, factors like the fact so many people are afraid to come out, speak up, can't etc. "Born in the wrong body" is an outdated concept that is borne of cisgender "understanding" of trans people. Cis people who've never had a real conversation with an actual transperson. Oh indeed,why should any parent prepare for the possibility of their child not being exactly what THEY want, and why should any parent desire a trans kid? Better to shut it all out, raise them strictly, ignore/deflect/encourage ignorance when they ask queslmtions that suggest they may be in some way "different" and pray like hell they don't grow into fucked up depressed teens, affected deeply and irreparably by a parent's restricting them and making them grow in a direction that isn't beneficial to their mental health or interpersonal development.

See this is when it's getting ridiculous. You are calling me "ignorant" because I have a different opinion. You are also basically saying only trans people can understand trans as a concept, which is stupid. I'm not an idiot, I know what trans is, I know the difference between someone's sex and someone's gender.

"Born in the wrong body" is an outdated concept? Are you not a woman, born into a man's body? That was my understanding based on everything you've said about your transition.

Another thing. No, I don't desire a trans kid. Why would I? Why would I desire my child be born male for example but identify as a woman? Why would I desire my child to go through difficult emotional and physical struggles as they grow up and go through a difficult transition, mental and/or physical, to get to where they want to be? I'd much rather my child be born "in the right body" (for lack of a better term, since apparently this one is outdated.")

My dad was raised that way. I was too. Sheltered. Discouraged from what felt good for me. Worked out great, I assure you. Been to the brink of suicide as a teen, the worst of my depression came from lack of being able to express or even put words to what I felt inside, and my father and I? Well, I guess *techncially, literally* we "talk". He calls me the old name and doesn't know anything at all about me. You now know infinitely more than he. He tells my mom he still loves me. He does not respect me.I do not need such "love". This is NOT an uncommon tale. 99%? Just... no.

I'm sorry about all the struggles you've had. I'm sure it's been tough. That sucks, but I still don't see how having a unisex toilet, alienating more people than it doesn't, is going to make trans people more "equal".

However, yes, 99% of the population being non-trans was an accurate estimate in my opinion. According to 2011 findings from the Williams Institute, the transgender population represents about 0.3% of American adults. I realise it's a couple years out of date, that not every transgender person will be represented in said findings, and that it is just American Adults, and it's probably a bit more, but I still think 1%, maybe 2% at the very most, is right.

How about not presuming your child anything and learning about them as you raise them, answer their questions, encourage the things they feel good doing and use some context to determine how to proceed with later developments? Kids are only blank slates at the get go. They form personalities and hobbies fast and if you presume over any aspect of their young identity, you run the risk of falling into the trappings that encumber our preconceived notions of what comes with "being straight" and being gender compliant and so on. Encourage happiness first, positive interaction and if they happen to line up to your vision, cool. Protip: the more presumptions / expectations you have in place, the more pressure (even subconsciously) you're gonna place on the child. Inform, educate, interact, encourage. There are things you can safely guide. There are muddy waters. Tread wisely.

Again, you are making assumptions that people need to be told how to raise their children. Making assumptions that every parents hates their boy playing with Barbie, or whatever. I think there's a lot lesss of those parents than you think. Sure, 20 years ago, it was a big deal. People change. Society changes. Yes, I realise trans people still get discriminated against, of course, but I don't think you're giving the current generation of parents enough credit. I think a lot of them are much more comfortable with their boy playing with Barbie than our parents were and so on. What you've suggested parents to help their kid in that paragraph is what any decent parent would do anyway. I would always (as would any decent parent) encourage happiness first, give my child positive interaction, let them know they can talk to me about anything. It comes across as very patronising when you lecture like that, especially to someone like me who has been a parent for five years and know I'm doing a good job and you (correct me if I'm wrong) have no children.

I'll just note at this point that I feel I've said basically all I can reasonably say without repeating myself or losing my cool. Also, that this had been an incredibly hard month and emotions are running high, all trans-related things aside. Well, most. So indeed, I've not been as civil as I can. One must nonetheless realize how close this is to me and how much it hurts to have seen so much backlash all over any social media site or forum, all over whether it's okay for trans people to go piss or shit in a restroom without being harassed, shamed, treated unequal and spoken of as a security risk. Meanwhile, in thr reported instances something has happened involving trans folk in public restrooms, it's invariably trans people being harassed or, in a couple i read about, beaten. All that the debate has proven is that society still has a long way to go til trans people are treated equally. Which literally everyone already knew anyway. Probably won't see it in my lifetime even if I live to 100. Not for real. Just on paper. By the way:
http://www.seventeen.com/life/school/ne … bathrooms/  (from 2015)

I understand what this issue means to you, I realise it's important. I wasn't attacking you, or anything. I just think you made some points that were incorrect or misguided and I also thought you bit off benjawi's head when there was literally no reason to. I can't speak for everyone, but I am on the side of trans people in that I think they should be treated equally. That doesn't mean scrapping gender toilets to suit them. That's not equal. That's heavily favoured to you. The issue here is how trans people are treated in toilets, not the actual fact the toilets are gendered. I agree, a trans person should be able to go into a toilet and feel comfortable, absolutely. I do not agree that anyone non-trans has to go to a unisex toilet just to make trans people feel better.

If we debate about something, it doesn't mean I am ignorant, it doesn't mean that just because you're opinion is different from mine, that you are right and I am wrong. It doesn't mean I don't understand the concept of trans. I'm happy to discuss anything with anyone on the forum but the simple fact is people have different opinions on a lot of things and sometimes they are wrong and sometimes you are and sometimes no-one is wrong. Insulting and patronising anyone who disagrees with you is not a good way to prove your point.

Last edited by rhys (Fri-27-May-2016 21:23:18)

All I can ask is what I asked before.

In what way would (this won't happen and I admittedly went over the top a bit)  scrapping gendered toilets put anyone out? What is the issue people have with unisex toilets? The concern?

It's not just that. You can have gendered toilets AND unisex / neutral bathrooms too. You say "why should I have to be made uncomfortable". I'll say the same, for myself if I were for any reason forced to use the bathroom that "corresponds" to my genitals. Again - "men are men and women are women" is an attitude, not a fact of life. Theyre rigid perceptions of gender.

Also, yes some trans folks might describe themselves as in the wrong body. But cis perception that I've encountered makes it sound like that's all there is to it / is all a than person is. A man in a woman's by or vice versa. Gender identity is a vast concept, and expression too. Your "99%" Stat still  holds no water. Hell, when I was in high school people still believed gay people made up 1% too. Maybe 1% of Americans, according to some limited study with limited available reliable data are trans men and women. Still doesn't account for so many gender variant people. Those identifying / expressing outside the binary are basically invisible. And there are many.

With bathrooms though, I don't see how anyone but trans pepole are being put out by this bathroom bill BS. This is a human rights issue, plain and simple. You have the right to use thr bathroom youre most comfortable in, why not everyone? Hell, due to non binary invisiblity, it likely won't even yield any new gender neutral spaces, and if it did it'll be for the wrong reason - a "compromise" wherein any trans person, identity regardless, would be made to use the neutrals while gendered bathrooms will be off limits. Why are people threatened by this move for change? A victory for trans folks here isn't gonna do any harm to any cis folks. But it's gotta be a whole big thing, with cis people making it about them and their comfort. Nothing is being proposed to my knowledge that should make you feel less comfortable in a public bathroom.
Still don't get what's wrong with a room full of stalls and sinks with Unisex written over the door. Some weird perception of "opposite" sex thing that I don't follow? Men afraid to be in the vicinity of tampons? I'm serious, I can't pin this down. Hell, in the long run I think it would break down some barriers with men and women and the initial awkwardness would give way to non-thought and the acceptance of the fact we're all just human. Unpopular opinion maybe.

Edit: There can be times I feel I'm in the "wrong body", it's a hard thing to say for me and hard to describe, as that feeling evolves with time, experience, and for my personal transition , hormones, speech therapy and in the future (hopefully sooner than later, the system will change) surgery, at least I'm fairly sure I want it. Big decision. Still. I wouldn't trade my experiences. It all leads you to where you are now, the good and the bad. You learn to stop qualifying experience and recognize it all as a collective. In short,  I'm proud to be who I am today and I've fought long and hard to get here. I'm legally female and haven't had any serious problem pertaining to bathrooms, other than the headache that much of this nonsense happening south of the border has been.

Last edited by Pilgrim Paige (Sat-28-May-2016 00:18:46)

It's really not. Men are wired to work that way, it's not a choice. There's really no changing how a man will look at a boob.

Go to a country where nude beaches are the norm and the hot weather brings on long stretches of people in scant clothing. Where are all the boners? No joke. Go to Europe in summer. By your statement every straight or bi male should be erect. Not the case. At all. It's not hard wired for men to be in permanent horndog mode. It's a cultural thing. Repression breeds immaturity and misconduct. On another slant, it breeds depression and oppression.

There's a difference between popping boners left and right and having a healthy sex drive. There's also a difference between being in horndog mode 24/7 and the male gaze. We have hormones, they do their thing whether we want them to or not. Of course we don't have to act on them, but for you to suggest that anything other than zero sex drive is a failing of society is completely ridiculous.

Well that's a two-way street. You're talking very strongly about straight males for someone who has never been one. And it's fine, carry on telling us why we're wrong. We've been hated for being straight, white and male by every ethnicity, gender alignment and sexuality there is, we're always the bad guy. Which in a lot of cases is totally justified, we have been shitty over the years, and that's something we'll never be able to put right. Look at the whole reparation deal, black people claiming money from white people because of slavery 200 years ago. The centuries of oppression will never be ok. But whatever, we're the bad guys so we'll take it. I guess that's our privilege.

Til straight male are getting killed for being straight males, forced out of the work world for being straight males, being marginalized, oppressed (lacking rights) and so on, don't talk all hurt about how poor straight men are treated. Check your privilege. That's not a fun quote for me BTW. It means somwthing. It doesn't mean feel shame. It means get aware of your position in the bigger picture of society and realize you've got it as good as it gets by default, the coincidence of your socoal acceptability. Youre a straight white male chux? It comes with a lot of privilege the majority of people (categorically considered minorities incidentally) will never know.

I am a straight white male and yes, due to that I escape certain discriminations. I also become the target of others, but that's not the point. Does it affect my life more than yours? Of course not. I am lucky, and even moreso because not only am I a straight white male, but I was also fortunate enough to be born into a rich Western country. I hit the jackpot.

You did manage to evade my point though. I'm never going to claim to know what it's like to live a day in the life of a trans person, but you're going off like a fire hydrant about what it's like to be a straight male. Equality is equality.

So a straight male having a sexual attraction to a female body is a failing of society, but you'll change who you are because of a strictly-defined societal gender role? Sounds to me like the problem isn't men and women being men and women, the problem is anyone who says girls can't play football. You're right that society has a lot of growing up to do, but not for the reasons you're giving.

I'm not changing who I am. I'm embracing who I am. Nothing to do with how society sees me. It was because of how society and people close to me, including parents, friends,  all view/viewed what I must be outwardly based on dated standards and presumed would be best/right/acceptable for me based on those presumptions and standards.

Statement A - "Nothing to do with how society sees me."
Statement B - "It was because of how society...viewed what I must be"

Yes, you embraced who you are and if you want to live in a female body then you go for it. I just find it strange that you, and others in your position, grow up feeling out of place because of these gender roles that are forced on you, and then complain post-transition that the way you're being treated is the problem. It's a problem, sure, but isn't the bigger problem that those gender roles still exist? Instead of feeling like you were a female in a male body and having to embrace that by changing your biology, wouldn't it make more sense to embrace who you are by doing all the supposedly 'feminine' things that you always wanted to do in the first place? Maybe in the end you'd want the surgery anyway, but maybe you wouldn't. Maybe saying a big 'fuck you' earlier on would have saved a lot of grief having to say 'fuck you' now.

And that's what's really on society. That's why it's important for schools to allow both sexes to do everything equally. That's why it's important for parents to let kids do what they feel they want to do, not by raising them genderless but by not being freaked out when your son wants a Barbie. Telling men not to feel natural urges is insane, having to reassign your gender because you feel better suited to the traditional life of the opposite gender is insane. My privilege may be that I'll never understand the struggle, but for the most part I can sympathise. What I really don't understand is why we're supposed to be breaking down toilet walls and not gender walls.

If I somehow implied that the singular reason (or that there must be one) for my transition is how society viewed me, then I made a grievous error. Or you took one statement and ran to hell with it. I was trying to relate what the social element is like. I am who I am and living as I am because it feels right inside and outside. Words are insufficient. I did my best to relate using words, to those who by their own nature, cannot grasp the weight of the aspects I cannot describe.

My *transition* isn't "because" of how I was viewed. It was for me to do, be, see outside what I feel inside is right for me. No, just "doing" feminine things I want without transition isn't enough. That's a different sense of identity. I'm not a feminine man. Or agender. Or whatever. I don't feel tied to any sense of being male/masculine, nor do I go and look for boxes to tick off in what it means to be a woman. I *embrace* what feels natural to me and makes me feel best about myself. My identity happens to be that of a trans woman. Social aspects sheltered me from knowing transitioning was an option, so it came later in life than I'd have liked. If this were familiar to me in youth and had support, I'd not discuss the social aspect so much. It's a factor that held me back from transitioning. I must have either really miscommunicated or something if you think I'm a trans woman because I was made to interact with boys and do masculine stuff. The identity doesn't come from without, it comes from within. The *fear* of expressing comes from without, and its subsequent effect within.  My *dysphoria* stemmed from social aspects and being sheltered and al that stuff, along with the envy of cis women obviously, and fearing I couldnt ever be like them. I was referring in that second statement about experiences pre transition if I recall correctly.

Every person who comes out not identifying with the cisgender binary IS breaking down gender barriers. You can argue that all you want.

I'm sick to death of being alone in my perspective on this topic here. I know full well who I am and what I stand for. I've been out for over a year and living as an out trans woman for over a year, and I'm al the better for it. I tried to break down some of it so an outsider might grasp, only to be harangued about how I communicated what I did manage. Much of gender identity can't be put into simple words. Fuck sake. I'm having one of the worst months of my life, and I somehow thought I could handle a topic like this, with familiar forum posters, but apparently I'm getting nothing across properly and do not have the wherewithal to go on and on about this.

This is who I am. There are many like me. We know where we belong. Restricting us doesn't change that. It only makes shit harder for us emotionally and makes us feel even more marginalized, misperceived and outcast. Every bit counts.

I feel so singled out and alone here. I can't help it. Yes, I get defensive. If you were in my shoes you'd get why. It's reflexive by now.

Last edited by Pilgrim Paige (Sat-28-May-2016 02:36:23)

I'm read through the entire topic and my feelings before you made one of your last posts Paige was no matter what is said you must feel so alone and uncomfortable being alone on this subject here.

I'm going to stick simply to the bathroom portion of this because i believe that is where this post began and i wish to not get deeply involved in this. and well i think you guys would all know by now i'm a straight male... but pretty accepting of natural things in life.

I think people need to calm the fuck down over the rest room issues gay/trans rights holy fuck just let these guys and gals be i'm sure there are things and at certain point where things need to be thought of in discretion but i'm not against anyones rights taken away. and i'm not ok with with trans people being treated like wild animals.....are there some bad apples who might be up for shady shit? sure but there are for straight males and females as well...nobody is immune to that... so to discrimate over it is bullshit... personally i think the bigger issues to be had are how filthy public restrooms ect are to begin with... and i guess i'm just going to say a rest room that's open in public in seedy neighborhoods or cities... chances are you will run into a deranged man who is likely straight because if he has no dudes to rob that night i'm sure he has no issues about raping a woman and robbing her cause in his twisted mind double the fun... idk i 've been researching NYC and LA in the 70s and 80s and it was a pretty bad time for these things.

I'm sorry if i'm trailing off subject and i hope i'm not creating an issue because i have no ill intentions here.

Paige. i knew you for ten years now... as who you were, if you are Paige now than i'm ok with that. you aren't offending me being yourself. i commend you for being so... i don't think anyone else on 4w has ill will towards but i understand what they are speaking..... i wish no hard feelings so i'll bow out now unless i'm asked a question.

Thanks for joining in, saying your piece and the polite words, Snake. Kick-ass avatar, I've been listening to a lot of Misfits of late. If you love the Misfits, check out The Crimson Ghosts from Germany. Great beefed up Misfits worship. "Body Bag" is a good start.

I guess I'll wade in a little too.... And I'll admit, that after maybe 7 or 8 posts on this topic I kinda gave up... A vry close friend from high school is transgender (compy will know him too) so I do know what it's like for someone to live in that 'scene' and although my personal Christian beliefs lead me towards disagreeing with the LGBT movement, I do also hold to basic human rights, as in, I may not believe in what you're doing and I may not support of jump for joy about it, I'm not gonna go around telling you how to live your life. If anything I'd prefer to agree to disagree and leave it at that. I'm not gonna go hell for leather and try and force my beliefs on you and I'd appreciate the same.

And that's my main issue with these uber LGBT advocates. The idea that if you're not with us, you're against us.... No, that's not true. The bible tells us to love our enemies (yes I know it's a strong word, and I don't mean that gay people are my enemies but in this context it means those who don't agree with you... gimme a break, it's a direct quote...) and I do try to, but a bit of grace from the other side would be nice too.... I will say now that I have had a lot of acquaintances and friends who consider themselves gay and they've been lovely people an we've had good and interesting conversations.

Ultimately, my opinion is that people are people and I'm not gonna treat them any differently that how I'd like to be treated myself. My only real issues with the LGBT community are the same issues I have with the feminist movement, i.e. the uber militants who will find any and every opportunity to take offence and spew their own brand of hatred towards anyone who's views differ even lightly from their own.

Why the whole bathroom thing is an issue I do not know, but the fact that we're even discussing it means that someone somewhere is laughing all the way to the bank and a lot of people are suffering unnecessarily......

Have watched that video a few times before. It's awesome.

What Gorgrim said is the same thing all modern Christians seem to say. I love this part: "I'll not force my beliefs on you and I'd appreciate the same." I'm not espousing beliefs. I'm living my life and no one else's, as are all trans* (note the star and look that up, I'd meant to include it before) people. If you're suggesting that we should not speak openly or that people should not be educated about it, then that's BS. Everyone in the West knows all about Christianity, whether you yourself proselytize or not. Your rights are quite intact. Ours are not, and will not be without the spread of proper information. If people can do that for centuries about their beliefs, we should be able to do it about equal rights in freedom of personal identity and expression.

Your beliefs bring you to "disagree with the LGBT movement", yet show vague neutrality, AND have a trans friend. I've no words. None that will not alienate me further here.

Gorgrim did make it clear he was talking about extremists, not the average trans person.

And hope there's no hard feelings Paige, it was a heavy debate but nothing any of us said was meant as a personal attack or anything.

Last edited by rhys (Sun-29-May-2016 16:54:01)

No hard feelings directly per se. The reality of the whole subject and the general resulting uproar results in what I'd call hard feelings, it's disconcerting stuff to say the least.

The thing I find most disconcerting is that this has become an issue in the first place. If I'd have to have an opinion on this single issue it'd be use whatever bathroom you feel the most comfortable using. The objections the nay sayers use are valid for strait people as well as LGBT, so I'd effectively consider them void for this argument. As as you pointed out a while back Paige, many people probably haven't realized they've encountered trans people, and as there are private cubicles in the male as well as female bathrooms, no one need know.... Total non issue brought to the fore by so called 'christians' who rely on fire and brimstone rather than love and grace. Those people are not Christian.....

I don't care what bathroom anybody uses, but there's nothing that has ever suggested to me that gender dysphoria is anything besides a mental disorder. We as a society/the AMA have jumped the gun in essentially declaring transgenderism the solution to gender dysphoria. That is, this faulty idea that one's perception of one's gender is correct, and that one's DNA, chromosomes and physiology are erroneous. In any other situation (i.e. thinking they were multiple different people, inanimate objects or animals) somebody would be deemed mentally unfit. There is no test for gender dysphoria/transgenderism because it's not a scientific label; in fact, there isn't even a standard set of symptoms one would go about to diagnose a patient other than "they say they don't like their born sex."

Follow the logic: my "gender" (i.e. perception) does not fit my sex (i.e. reality), thus I will change how I present myself to match my skewed perceptions (i.e. maladaptation); once this is achieved, I should be totally rid of my dysphoria and depression. Which is a load of bullocks, as suicide rates are astronomical among the transgender community. And no, it does not have anything to do with society not accepting them, because if they are "passable," and perceived by society as the gender of their choosing, there would be no problem of acceptance. So, even transgender people who perceive a mismatched sex and gender in themselves, change their sex, and are effectively perceived as the opposite gender, still commit suicide at astronomical rates, despite "curing" the gender dysphoria. If the issue was mismatching gender and sex, and not a real mental disorder, then why is there virtually no improvement in survivability if one is "passable"?

I also hate the double-speak. "Assigned male at birth" Like fuck, unless you were a hermaphrodite and legitimately misgendered at birth, there is no such thing as "assignment." Nature assigned it to you in your DNA. Stop politicizing the English language.

Last edited by taker_2004 (Tue-27-Jun-2017 04:07:00)

Oh boy, you had to revive this thread didn'cha? 😋

I don't care what bathroom anybody uses,

Then you should have stopped there.

On to my experienced perspective, and a lot of highly unpopular personal opinions!

but there's nothing that has ever suggested to me that gender dysphoria is anything besides a mental disorder. We as a society/the AMA have jumped the gun in essentially declaring transgenderism the solution to gender dysphoria.

That is, this faulty idea that one's perception of one's gender is correct, and that one's DNA, chromosomes and physiology are erroneous. In any other situation (i.e. thinking they were multiple different people, inanimate objects or animals) somebody would be deemed mentally unfit. There is no test for gender dysphoria/transgenderism because it's not a scientific label; in fact, there isn't even a standard set of symptoms one would go about to diagnose a patient other than "they say they don't like their born sex."

Follow the logic: my "gender" (i.e. perception) does not fit my sex (i.e. reality), thus I will change how I present myself to match my skewed perceptions (i.e. maladaptation); once this is achieved, I should be totally rid of my dysphoria and depression. Which is a load of bullocks, as suicide rates are astronomical among the transgender community. And no, it does not have anything to do with society not accepting them, because if they are "passable," and perceived by society as the gender of their choosing, there would be no problem of acceptance. So, even transgender people who perceive a mismatched sex and gender in themselves, change their sex, and are effectively perceived as the opposite gender, still commit suicide at astronomical rates, despite "curing" the gender dysphoria. If the issue was mismatching gender and sex, and not a real mental disorder, then why is there virtually no improvement in survivability if one is "passable"?

"Transgenderism" (no one says this / my gender is not an ideology, practice or philosophy) indeed is not a solution to gender dysphoria. Gender dysphoria is a byproduct of the trans experience that affects every individual differently. I transitioned, and elements of dysphoria pertaining to my body, my former self (I'm very disconnected from much of pre-transition, especially post-puberty) and social experiences continue to affect me and always will. (Though, the specifics and severity do shift and morph.) If I had never transitioned, he (former self) would still have dysphoria; that sense of "wrongness"; that deep-rooted longing for something real. (He was barely real at all... so fabricated Well... no, actually... he wouldn't have dysphoria eating away at his brain anymore. He'd have worms doing that—he had no intention of living to see 30. I'm 29 and then some. And, you'll notice, very much alive. And loving it, in spite of dysphoria, anxiety and clinical depression. How could I not love and appreciate my existence? It is real. And so unlikely to have come about, for so many reasons. I was born in 1987. I began living a little over 2 years ago. He came way too close to killing himself. I exist because he didn't go ahead and end it all. Yep—I was born in 1987—and I am leading a healthy and fulfilling life. All this sharing is for some perspective. If you think dysphoria and trans suicide rates have nothing to do with how trans folks are treated in society... or that everyone is super-accepting if you "pass"... there is so much off and limited in your grasp of these subjects for me to quite know how to tackle. I pass well. I'm fairly conventionally feminine et al. This isn't a simulation or fabrication; it's what comes natural and—though hidden, even from my former self—always did. My mom can recall my childhood self at age 3, sitting on the edge of her bed, intently watching her curl her hair. "I remember thinking of it as 'Way too fascinated for a little boy'. That little boy liked dinkies and action figures. And "girl toys" like Barbie and Littlest Pet Shop, the former of which wasn't allowed and the latter a hidden indulgence nurtured occasionally by my mom. But gender stuff was very rigidly enforced in general. Gendering toys and the like is bullshit... I still see parents and guardians enforce it so staunchly.  ... He played Juliet in a 1-scene English class assignment in junior high. Mom only found that out this year. (Thought shw knew! Poor memory.) Girls did his nails and eye makeup in senior high school (a time he also barely lived through). Not just during the goth phase, either! (Love goth shit... plus it's a great way for closeted/unaware gender-variant folks to express new things.) He dresses in drag, at a friend's place, for tge first time. So yeah... waaay too much time was spent wishing he was, or was like, them (girls.) That may all sound superficial; it's hard to convey the elements beyond outward expression. These moments bore more connection to a real inner sense of self than anything else. His apparent personality and humor was mostly Frankensteined together from TV characters, comedians and storybooks. If transition is the wrong path to dealing with (your words) a mental illness, what then is right? His suicide before turning 30? Throw meds at him that would have made him even less than he already was? Or maybe conversion therapy? Let me quickly (who am I kidding? I go on and on!) tell you a bit about the latter. Without getting into a huge thing: I'm familiar with various accounts of gay and trans conversion therapy "recipients" (victims). Over a gradual period of time, they mentally chip away and physically take away the "aberrations" in a person's (with gender stuff, it's often a child's) sense of expression/behavior/appearance... hobbies, etc. With kids, toy and color preferences are strictly gendered. For example, a biologically male (XY chromosomes and whatnot) child, living in the invariably accepted
gender role who happebs to like or prefer dolls; play dress-up; the color pink, etc. will gradually have these things taken away until all that remains are, say, toy trucks and will have no pink stuff whatsoever. Parents will be placated by a psychologist's insistence that it's just a phase, or that their child is probably "just gay" rather than trans and the like. Of course, this shit fucks a person up, especially a young mind, and some go on to attempt or successfully kill themselves. Back to suicide: I can't stress enough how misguided and uninformed you are on this. Quick analogy/thought before my main material: Some people with depression, for whom medical intervention actually works, still go on to commit suicide. Does that mean medical intervention to combat depression is not a suitable path? I'm tired right now and conveying poorly, but I'll try my best to help you out on the reality behind the suicide stats. You seem to think transitioning/passing well is supposed to "cure" dysphoria  (nope!). And imply that dysphoria is only about one's self-perceptions/discontentment with one's birth sex. (Also not quite right. For body-specific dysphoria this obviously plays in.) Dysphoria is quite complex and has many faucets. A huge part you ignore is the social/interpersonal aspects.

Okay. So, I'm a trans woman. That's gender identity. My identity informs my gender expression; I'm fairly typically femme, so let's note makeup, long styled hair, purses etc. These are all comfortable/enjoyable/whatever and it all feels right to me. Natural, as it were. Hormone treatment has been kind to me. I pass well. I'm legally female. (Super-cool, that.) And yet, those who work it out, or simply know (small town area; people talk... and stare... a look can say so much) have some neat-o shit to call me, right? Like...

*Tranny.
*A guy dressed up like a woman.
*He-she.
*Faggot. (oh, the irony... I'm more of a lesbian than anything, though I do feel sexuality is a fluid thing, to different degrees for different people )

And so on. What kinds of things do folks think is fine to ask me?

*Asking about my genitals (would you be cool with a stranger asking what's in your pants?)
*Asking what my "real" name is. (What they are referring to is what we call our deadname. For many--I'm a good example if this--to be referred to by this is like having one's heart wrenched.)
*Asking if I've had "the surgery" (not all trans people pursue this / some can't, i.e. diabetics, etc.)
*Asking if/presuming I am a prostitute. (Too big of a subject to get into.)

Etc. Let's get a bit heavier. What about employment?   (*this shit should change soon in Canada, seeing as Bill C-16 finally passed into law after many versions over 12 years... which is unprecedented.) What's Bill C-16? Basic equal rights shit, frankly. Won't magically fix things, but it's something. Here:
https://openparliament.ca/bills/42-1/C-16/

I know trans people who've:
*Lost their job upon coming out
*Been turned away at interviews.
*Had wrongful dress code violations after commencing change of outward expression.
*Have had to turn to survival sex work.

Let's go further in general:
*Been abused emotionally and/or physically... abusive relationships / friendships are rampant (I know the latter all too well) et al. Folks sure like to take advantage of dysphoria/self-esteem issues.
*Been raped
*Been physically assaulted

We're murdered (usually gruesomely) and assaulted all too often. I've had a near-miss myself. Taken advantage of. Sexually degraded/fetishized (especially trans women). Wrongfully terminated from jobs, careers. We do an independently organized Trans Pride thing here in July (pics will be posted). I've met too many young people who've been kicked out by their parent(s) for coming out as trans, genderqueer etc. Note: there's a ton of ways to experience gender. Also true for sexuality. In Canada, the US and many other countries, society operates on a gender binary... still, in many others, multiple gender identities and expressions are acknowledged, accepted and integrated. Seriously--check that shit out, it's super-interesting. But here, it's been men and women (this is a wrestling chat site... "ladies and gentlemen!") for all our history. Also, our society is constantly equating sex and gender, which is quite a limited and dated angle. Though yes, I love that I'm legally female. If I could have XX chromosomes, I would! Feel free to try to use that against me and prattle on about mental illness.

Aaaand so on. Yeah, I ramble. Also very tired presently. If you're actually still reading, you're a trooper! But also, you may see where all of that was leading up to...

We are treated as less-than. The negativity; sweeping us under the rug for years; the crimes against us; the fetishizing; the huge amount of homeless youth who are LGBT. Queer folks, and especially at this juncture in time, trans folks, are marginalized in this society; the media; the work force... the prison system, the law... (praying Bill C-16's recent success makes at least a little difference to some of these here in Canada)... in everything. Also note that mental illness or mood disorders are sometimes present, and these are exacerbated by the likes of what I've noted. In turn, poor mental health affects intensity of dysphoria. Stress is a big thing and we get plenty of that, too. So...

Dysphoria comes from both within and without. Many, many factors beyond (and affecting) the internal experiences to consider, you see.

Is the trans suicide rate making any more sense to you now? It's not a single-fauceted issue. I imagine familial/social/romantic/religious rejection are quite prevalent catalysts. I know many trans folk who have attempted suicide. Of those, most occured in pre-transition. I don't know anyone who attempted it due to transitioning. I do know some who attempted it due to rejection. We are too often viewed as "other". Less- than. By people who would rather pretend we don't exist. But people rise up. Oppression never wins. Every trans person I know struggles with dysphoria. Zero regret transition.

also hate the double-speak. "Assigned male at birth" Like fuck, unless you were a hermaphrodite and legitimately misgendered at birth, there is no such thing as "assignment." Nature assigned it to you in your DNA. Stop politicizing the English language.

Again, it gets into the fact sex and gender have too long been equated in our society. Inseparable. Allow me to attempt (best I can do--thats's not me being saucy) to aid your comprehension...

A baby is born, healthy... 10 fingers, 10 toes. Simple, reliable XX chromosomal designation. Unambiguous genitalia. (Vagina.) The doctor presents the baby to its good ol' standard-issue parent figures: a mom and dad; wife and husband. For fun: they're white; able-bodied; Christian; straight as whips; they're cisgender (woman is XX, man is XY). They hit the social, sexual, gender, health, religous, economic and racial jackpots all without lifting a finger, basically. (Only had to lift a bible and an erection, come to think.) So. What does the doctor say upon entering the room? You know full well.

"Congratulations! It's a healthy baby girl!"

I can hear your brain flipping out and before you die from frustration: I have no real problem with that! I don't expect the delivering doctor to use neutral pronouns or anything like that. There. You okay? Just take a few deep breaths. (I jest.)

That said... this is a form of assignment due to the deep-seated trajectory of that biologically female child's life in terms of things that are gendered in our society. (Most things.) To me, assignment thus can start at mid-pregnancy, when so many expecting mothers request an ultrasound to determine the sex of the baby. What's the most common reason for this, really? Because sex and gender are equated and they want to imagine all the gendered things they presume will suit their child just fine, without question. (And certainly not with heartache or confusion.)  The balloons will be pink. So willl clothes. From there; there will be dresses and bows, and bangs; dolls. Skip ahead: she will be expected to date boys. There'll be teeb rebellion, but the parents rest assured that she'll grow into an upstanding young woman. Sweet sixteen ... and one day, marriage. "..to a handsome young man!", the mother imagines. But what if that's all wrong? Or just some of it? Expectation/pressure is intense. My childhood self knew intrinsically how he was expected to talk, dress and behave. But he had a soft voice that, on the phone, was sometimes mistaken for his mother's. And he secretly liked this... to ne mistaken for not only a woman, but his mother, whom he admired so. And having to correct the grown-up on the other end of the line made his heart ache in a way he didn't have words for.

By the way--not all who "pass" very well want to go stealth (blend in; not live as an out  person). I am unsure of my own gradual path. For now, I'm open. Trick is, if you do go stealth, you never turn your back on the trans community. I know some stealth trans women and guys. They engage, privately and/or as an ally, with the community. A girl I know answered many questions I had about surgeries. But yeah... trans pride is very much alive.

The things that were pushed on us from the get-go... are so pervasive into the psyche. I'm talking about the pressure of expectation. "It's a girl" and "It's a boy" carry so much more weight than most people realize, or else they would stop to think about. It's the gateway to a huge web of pressure; of harmful limitations. The very same insistence of dictating boys and girls' interactions... girls were so "other"; boys presumed more than they knew; as horny teens, straight boys seemed to think they were owed sex... I still constantly overhear too many men talk like that. Women are bitches and sluts. They talk about putting out--that entitlement to sex still intact. Or the "friend zone"--again, the sense of being owed something. Please don't say "not all men" either. I know that, because I can think. But yeah. Shutting down a child's hobbies... keeping them in gender-specific clothing. So on. Limiting expression causes so much more harm than good, no matter the child's identity. And yes, children have identities. (Side note: it's always sucked that only girls--sometimes--get a comparatively "free pass" on expression with the magic word, "tomboy".) Not every boy who wants to/does dress up (dress-up can be fun; it's harmless; why is fun gendered?) as a princess identifies as a girl or will transition to a non-cis identity later in life. Not every tomboy wishes to be a man. Some do; some will. They're kids; they need to explore and express to expand, to grow. This is so readily observable; researchable; etc. My childhood and teenage self had nooo idea this (transition) was a real, actual thing people can do. No one ever called my teen self a tranny in those days. Just gay/fag and all that. Wasn't a thing anyone took time to think about. We've been around forever and in fact, were studied and well-documented in pre-Nazi Germany. Then...  book burnings and well, camp. They set trans and LGBT visibility back into the shadows, only propaganda. Then Jorgensen in the US media. Then... villainization of LGBT people in film. Then Stonewall (partly by trans women of color, whom too many people ignore/erase from the history.) Then... "the gay plague" (AIDS). Maybe if someone had said something--even tranny--it would have opened up a whole new world and spared him years of pain. Who knows? The past is painful, but at least it indeed is "the past". But the thought of so many other people growing up having all this suppressed; hidden, is so saddening. That repression and shame all children learned back in the day is still alive and well. Shifting some, though.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=yvJTsrWarrw

Directly on topic, simply: we have always existed, and been quietly using the washroom we each feel most comfortable in for generations without folks knowing it. Because it's no one's business. Public spaces which alllow trans people this basic decency haven't been bogged down by the assaults the fear-mongers insist would be perpetrated upon cis people (women. They mean women, really.) "Allowing this is to allow men to attack women!" That shit isn't happening. Only thing happening is happening to us. We're the ones who feel unsafe. Unwelcome. Only place some folks seem to think we belong is back in the closet. I recall a story of a cisgender teen boy going into the girls' bathroom at his school with a wig and such on and getting caught peeping over stalls; he was promptly booted out and punishes. Bathroom bills create a rule out of a non-existent exception. As for men assaulting women in bathrooms, that's nothing to do with trans women. States would basically be punishing trans women for actions unconnected to them in any other way than also being victimized. Trump was swift to take away protections set by Obama for transgender people/kids in workspaces, schools and public bathrooms using fear-mongering and appealing to the longstanding, deep-seated ignorance still alive in so many people. The shit worked. But before him, bathroom bills had tons of supporters and too many fence-sitters. This is how hate picks up wins. The loudest fear-pushers do their thing while too many others are just way too jaded to stop and think about things or see political issues as having any roots in the lives of real people.

Some stuff:  "Hermaphrodite" by the way, is a super-dated term that's been long since tossed aside in the medical/scientific community and respectful society. Prostitute, by the way, I'm 100% sure you also know, has negative connotation and has oft been used by those who demonize or dehumanize sex work(ers). Fun fact: "Trans-gender" appeared in print in the '50s, coined by Christine Jorgensen after a headlining article about her transition.

I know this was long and disjointed. Half of it was written quite late and yes, I'm a very wordy--and emotional--woman. I've posted all this, believe it or not (you won't) not seeking to fight with you. We didn't politicize shit for kicks; inequality is kind of a big catalyst in pursuing social, economic, legal and medical change (too few truly know how best to help us in medicine, when there should be basic required knowledge; my physicians and sexologist are amazing. I have to travel to see them (though I'm finally moving soon), as no clinic or hospital witihin an hour of here has any idea what to do with trans people, apparently. Still... far cry from being refused servicr and sent on one's way. How much does one need to know about a trans person before helping them in an asthma attack? Not my story, but yeah. Hell, my first prescribing physician nearly permanently damaged my liver; she was neglectful and cold. Too high a start dose, and sent on my way ("come back in 3 months"). My current physician actually knows her shit and has been invaluable, and actually has basic social skills. This isn't rocket science. Side note: medical science is on our side.

If transition isn't the right path and I'm just indulging a mental illness, then I don't want to be well. I've lived more in 2 years than he did in nearly 27. And he'd be very fucking dead by now. *Fact*. That would be a slightly more one-sided ... (chat? Debate? I don't feel like I'm in a debate; I just am the only one here who can speak to first-hand experience and felt an ache in her heart upon seeing this thread name in the Recently commented section.

I apologize for some of this post being antagonistic. (A lot of it is directed at no one in particular; I'm kinda hoping against hope this will be the last time my brain tells me to go on and on... aaand ooon... about all this. A lot of it may be technically irrelevant. I debated whether to post this and honestly, I put too much work into it to not do so. Part of me says, "Just send it to yourself to reflect on!")
"Politicizing language" -- nice one. But yeah... agree to disagree re: being assigned (blank at birth. If that phrase is a big deal to you... and it seemd like it... wow. That's a pretty fortunate position to be in. I sincerely hope to one day be in a position where I can say that the way a certain concept's terminology is a big deal. Hard to imagine such a relaxed state. I know you'll take this and say it's not the words but the intent and blah blah politics. If you feel that's the root of such things, well--again--there's just a big disconnect in our perspectives.

I want to take a moment to say that I feel perception informs reality more than the other way around. Without my firm grasp of my internal self-perception, I could never have shaped my life--my reality--to the meaningful, productive, confident and compassionate existence I lead.

I pray you can imagine why a trans person has a natural instinct to go on the defensive; I forget myself at times. I'm accustomed to people dehumanizing, and verbally/text...ually?? abusing or dismissing me in person and online; the human behind the post. I have been guilty of said as well, at times. A computer (or likely phone) screen and a username create a bizarre mix of connection and disconnection, huh? I've shared all of this unfiltered emotion, opinion, experience and knowledge in an effort to humanize the issue for you. And--reflexively--to humanize myself. My word is not law. But I must insist that I'm real, transition is (and trans people are) brave, beautiful and life-affirming--fot myself and many I know; and there is no better "option". There is no  alternative to embracing oneself.

My name is Paige. (Hello. No BS, just... hi, fellow 4CW veteran.)
I'm 29 years old. (And not in a coffin.)
I'm a person, above all else. (Not obvious to everyone out there, apparently.)
I'm a woman and have every right to be. (You have the right to see otherwise. Canadian law seems to agree with me, presently.)
I've been living as a woman for 2+ years. (In a role that happens to be fairly typical of society's take on what that means... this comes from a very real place; I am not overtly feminine to "fit" on a consciois level--subconscious probably factors in and that's true for most personal aspects of the human self. From my innermost feelings; hopes; goals; wants; needs. Basically, I just-so-happen to tick a lot of boxes... about as much as a trans gal can.)
I'm transgender. (You likely picked up on this by now, huh?)
I have a penis and testes. (Not for too much longer! Also, this is hard to acknowledge but it seems relevant to the topic.)
I am Canadian. (True, but I'm not patriotic; more so, this is a humorous reference to the Molson Canadian beer slogan in the '90s.)
I am legally female. (I carry a copy of my birth certificate with me at all times; never know when one might need it. All my other stuff, like driver's license, reflects this, too.)
I use the washroom marked "Women" wherever gendered washrooms are applicable. (Again--"woman" is an experience of gender, not biological sex... gender is rooted in the mind, sex is rooted in the genitals and such.) Note washrooms are not marked with "Biological by birth female" for example. Testosterone blockers are a powerful diuretic; I pee a lot. My genital status does not inform where I "belong". My right to using a safe, hopefully clean public washroom is invaluable. And on that note, lastly...
I am a 5 foot 7, 136 pound skinny (female hormones = loss of muscle mass, etc.) little trans woman. (Who sooo needs to start working out properly and taking self defense classes.)  Given that (and I know you said you don't care which washroon people use; this is for me/rhetorical...
Beyond comfort/ gender-affirmation...
How safe do you think I'd be in the men's room?

If anyone managed to read this... thanks. I must now note how stressful this thread and subject have been for me, a long while now. I realize I chose to write all I wrote. The emptional impact of debates and such... that are about the very core and truth of my existence... are, naturally, difficult. To put it lightly. I know lots of upset folks say this in threads, but I truly will not be posting in this again. I'd love to see it locked... Taker_2004 can reply if he likes first or privately being respectful.

Thanks,

-Paige

Last edited by Pilgrim Paige (Tue-27-Jun-2017 19:30:08)

While I haven't read your post yet, I saw that you mentioned you want to see it locked. I don't see any need to lock the thread as long as the thread remains within the forum rules so it's going to remain open for the time being.

Great post Paige. For real. I've never seen all those issues explained in such detail in one place. It'd be cool if you could reword some of this and send it into some site, to be posted as an Op-ed. Good stuff. Informative also.

Good reads.

Ha... breaking my word as such, just to say a few quick things...

Rhys: Sorry—I didn't mean to imply there was a cause to lock it presently. Only that I'm very used to this sorta thread breaking down and becoming something toxic and would like to see it locked if it ever does go that way. Any case, I do feel I've said all I feasibly could in terms of content... plus, that was emotionally taxing. Though it may seem unfair to do a huge post and "bail", so to say, I think it's in my best interest to step away this thread. I'm trying to get better at looking after my mental health in general, and stepping back from an emotionally taxing environment has often been a big struggle for me.

To Sery: Thank you very much! The comment and the fact you took the time to read through all that means a lot to me. Let's talk SummerFest in the near future! Next few days will be even more hectic than things have been lately—getting the key to my new apartment tomorrow and gotta get all my things on the move ASAP.

To RD: Presuming my post is included in the "good reads" of this thread—Thanks a lot!

Last edited by Pilgrim Paige (Wed-28-Jun-2017 02:17:31)

How did I miss this thread?!

I hate gender talk with when children are involved. So pointless. Children of a really young age don't care about it. My nephew loves barbie, seen him get a dress on and run around with all his girl friends loving life. He also loves toy guns. Children don't care about gender and generally don't know at that age because it's all the same to an undeveloped mind. At the same time, if a parent is excited about having a boy and want their room to be blue, have a football kit already picked out, etc then go for it. Parents have the right to be excited about having that child and doing what they want with regards to toys and colours. My nephew is 5, when he put on his friends dress I said "Fred, you're a girl now" and he shouted back at me that no he's a boy. No matter how he dresses of what he wears, he'll associate himself as a boy and that's only right. They have more than enough learning to do at that age without being confused by gender talk. Hell, even I can remember putting on my mothers wedding dress and high heels for a laugh and playing with My Little Pony as a child. Never once questioned by gender or sexuality because I was a child.

AS for adults, and the main point of the thread, it's not something I care about (in a sense that it all really doesn't bother me. Someone could associate their gender as being a purple two headed squirrel and I'd be okay with it. I'd think they're nuts with that particular example, but if that's what makes them happy and they're harming no one, then each to their own.) But whilst I don't care whether I share a public toilet space with men, women, goats, purple two headed squirrels, etc , I can see why people wouldn't like it. My main thought on people not liking it would be religious grounds. Some are still quite funny about women "knowing their place." I can't imagine Muslim women wanting to share bathrooms with men. Now if they went men, women, both and gave three sets of toilets then everyone would be happy surely. The thing is, you can't force people to suddenly change what has been a social norm for such a very long time.

In fact, I mention the squirrel thing because some people taking the gender talk to retarded levels. If a male wants to associate their gender as a woman, that's fine. Want to associate your gender as a squirrel or a tree, you need to get yourself locked up in a mental home. Also I swear people are just making up ways to make things more complicated than they have to be. Whatever happened to people just being straight, gay or bi? Seriously don't get how you can be anything other than. Pansexual, gender-blind and terms like that are surely all just the same as bi? Don't care whether they're male or female. And if a guy is trans, and someone likes them I don't see how that's any different from being either straight, gay or bi. Far too many terms and words being made up which all just adds confusion to people and leaves others wondering where they fit. Nothing wrong with just the three.

Also something that I've noticed elsewhere (particularly with one of my "friends" who likes to cross dress) is that they want tolerance, but isn't really a tolerant person. He had an argument with another of my friends last week questioning whether he's really happy with the clothes he wears and the social norm of selecting mens clothes and how they should be like him and not care what he wears. Friend commentated that he's more than happy with the clothes he owns and wears, but the jackass crossdresser wouldn't accept it because he seems to care about what people think of him and what he's wearing. No tolerance for other peoples opinions of views at all because they don't match his. I've noticed the same when speaking to his friends as well, which aren't part of my circle of friends. Want tolerance, but don't give tolerance back. Something that everyone needs to be wary off unless someone wants you to be tolerant to a racist, because there's no excuse for that (unless maybe you're old, since my Nan is kinda racist because her generation was. My mother however is thankfully far from it). People all have different feelings and opinions and ways of being brought up.  But you can't ask for people to be tolerant if you're not going to be tolerant of other peoples feelings and emotions as well. Goes for everyone.

Personally think a lot of people need to calm down. I call people precious all the time because they're all so sensitive about everything. Maybe it's because I just generally don't care and think everyone needs to be as calm as I am about things. Someone calls me a cunt or something, don't care. Call me whatever you want buddy, doesn't bother me in the slightest because I'm happy with who I am. Surprisingly, despite being a depression sufferer, it's never brought on by what people say to me because I'm happy with myself as a person (minus the depression thing obviously). If people weren't so sensitive, there'd be a lot less problems in the world. A lot less funny whiny local newspaper articles from sensitive people that "only want an apology" and not compensation for something, but there's be less problems. Sooner people can get happy with themselves as a person and not be bothered by what others say, the world will be a much better place.

Last edited by Ninjak_XO (Wed-28-Jun-2017 10:09:07)