Transgender Bathroom Debate

Hi. Real, live trans woman here!

So, I've heard about all I can take on this subject. What I have to say is this:

The stats, in the USA and Canada, show time and time again that trans folks are not causing any trouble in public bathrooms and, if anything, are the ones likely to be assaulted. I'm of the mind bathrooms should be unisex. The fears have proven unfounded. We're all just people. Do perverts exist? Sure. Will anyone try to take advantage of this? Dunno. But you don't go and deny basic human rights on behalf of some vague fearful notion. Frankly I think it's mostly just a mask to wear over western society's ongoing transphobia in a time when it's finally becoming a talked about subject - mire importantly, a time when trans people are rising up and being themselves without shame. I'd like to add without fear too, but that's far from the case. We all have cause to fear and have been well aware of it a long time, long before this hyper-reactionary transphobic "bathroom safety" panic. Seriously - read some stats. Will never matter what year or month it is on the calendar, being "different" doesn't come without a cost. The murders last year in the USA alone are fucking staggering - then remember you're only seeing the tip of the iceberg.
It's a god damn public bathroom, people. Pervs are gonna be pervs, sure. Forbidding transgender folks from using the appropriate bathroom:
A) Is transphobic, plain and simple, especially..
B) For "safety's sake" - that is panicky unsubstantiated garbage, plain and simple, and also realize
C) Not only will no one will be safer for this, but you're putting trans people at even greater risk. Transphobic will be on the lookout for trans people in bathrooms, ironically causing a form of harassment these bills allegedly seek to eradicate, oh and...
D) These bills are supposed to protect women? Tell that to a trans woman being forced to use a men's washroom .. think there's no security risk there? Naaah, how could there be? Heterosexual cisgender males have such a great track record with trans folk! And lastly, the thing so many forget or dunno...
E) There are way more gender identities and forms of expression out there than 2. Lots of non-binary folk out there. Gender queer.  Two spirit. Androgyne. Bi-gender. In a word - people who don't identify as cis or trans male, or cis or trans female. People whom don't see that most establishments have a bathroom that accommodates them. Gender neutral bathrooms are a rare thing, sadly. Let's get that changed, yeah?
Having gendered bathrooms just drags on a too-long standing dissentience in society - it enforces outdated gender norms while also reminding us that because different genitals exist, as well as perverts, "men and women" (like I said, outdated norm) must be kept apart and women must go on fearing men by default.
Trans folks are people who wanna get in and out of a damn public restroon as fast as anyone in a public bathroom does. Regardless of laws, we're already taking a big risk by fucking existing in public while being openly our true selves. Are, by default, on edge in any public space. All this "debate", and talk of restrictive laws just makes it even harder, and reminds us just how far so much of society still has to go to see people first, and every little fucking qualifier (to help ya know who to mindlessly hate and/or fear!)
.. well, never.

There was this big thing about Trans people in my city the other week. Basically, a woman becoming a guy was using the guys changing room and showers at the gym. They got a load of complaints about guys feeling uncomfortable - when asked, it was because she hadn't had the op yet, so although she herself as a man and was going through with the change, she (he?) still had boobs and a vagina. So the guys felt uncomfortable and even pointed out that if it was the other way around, and a guy that was changing into a girl still had a penis, women wouldn't feel comfortable showering with them - which lead to a load of women agreeing.

The whole thing kicked off because the gym owner ended up saying that until the op happened. they had to use the changing room/shower that matched their body. The trans person thought they were being victimised by the gym bosses, even though they only made this choice because of an awful lot of feedback and they complained to the papers and everything. Which then lead to people having a go at them for being a baby and making a bigger deal out of it than there should be.

And that was where I agreed with it. I don't know anyone that cares about people being trans (I know that there will be people that do though, because people are idiots), but from everything people were saying, there's more people that don't care over here than people that do. They just believe that if you have a penis, you use the mens... if you don't, you use the womens. No one needs to know that you're trans, as no one cares. Good on you in fact. But there's no need to make a big deal out of it and cry victim all the time because something hasn't gone your way - which is what seems to happen here.

There's one in our paper today where a guy was saying he's becoming a woman, and has been for years... turns out he'd been using that to get into womens showers and when he was alone with one, raping them. So you can understand why women wouldn't want to shower with someone with a penis, even though they're saying that they're becoming a woman. It's the whole being understanding thing - the trans people that have kicked off over here are demanding people understand what they're doing through, but refuse to understand that some people feel uncomfortable in certain situations whilst they're going through it (like women showering with what is to look at, a guy).

There was another one recently where they cried victim and it was so retarded. They'd changed gender, legally changed their name, but not updated their passport or driving licence. Went to withdraw their money from the bank and got refused, as their ID did not match the name on the card and the picture no longer looked like the person handing over the ID. Huge kick off about it and how the bank made them feel like they were scum and trying to steal money. No love, the bank is just doing their job! If you don't look like the person in your ID, and you have a different name on your ID than you do on your bank card, then bank have every right to refuse it... otherwise anyone could withdraw money from someone else's bank account just claiming to be trans and not to have gotten around to updating their ID yet. So fucking stupid, but ran to the papers crying victim.

You understand nothing about trans people.

"The op"? Fucking LOL. Many, many trans folks do not get "the op"- either because surgical transition is not an aspect of their identity/expression, or if it is, they cannot afford it or so on. I myself want "the op". I'm in Canada. 2 (maybe 3? I think 2 now: transphobes burned down a Quebecois health centre that performed gendee r affirming surgery) places in Canada do it. It's $9000+ dollars, plus the cost of the plane trip to and from. Or, I can go on a 6 year wait list - for APPROVAL for coverage, then another wait list for surgery. We are fighting to change this - for sex reassignment surgery (SRS) to no longer be considered "cosmetic".

Your logic on the bathroom stuff is:
Penis - men's
Vagina - women's
"No one needs to know you're trans"

Literally everything about that is exactly what's wrong in the first place. Genitals do not define gender identity; biological sex does not equal "man" or "woman". Many cultures recognize multiple genders. Sadly in the western world, nope.

Ive been transitioning a year. One is never "done" transitioning,  so to say. I've made leaps and bounds. I'm legally female. I'll use the women's room, as it's where I belong. I cause no trouble (can't believe I'm even saying something so stupid) and so far have been "lucky" enough to "only" have a few women stare as they enter, seeing me washing my hands and they exit til I also leave, then go in. No one need to know I'm trans? Dude. This is me. You put me in a men's room, what do you expect in terms of treatment? It'll be a lot worse than the coldness of transphobic cis women who've been MADE afraid by this fucking stupid fear campaign. Why do I say that? Do some fucking research. Again - men do not have a good track record with trans women. Last year in the UZA alone around 80 trans women were murdered by men. One was a drive by stabbing.  What the fuck is that shit? And don't dare suggest gender didn't factor in.
No one needs to know? Not all of us "pass" well, in terms of those of us who are trans men and women rather than another identity. Which means people can tell. Even if not - what the fuck? Dumbest thing I've heard in a while.

Also, screw off completely with that ID stuff. I've fucking been through it first hand. You do realize these are PROCESSES? Legal changes I mean.. so yeah. Someone staring you up and down cause you don't look like your picture is harrowing, especially if you have severe dysphoria about an old photo ID that hasn't been updated yet and it triggers you to have to show it.

Trans folks "cry victim" because in western society we ARE victimized every fucking day. It's the nature of discrimination and oppression. Congrats on bring a straight male. Trans people are no threat to anyone and are only seeking the same basic rights as everyone. I've been called all kinds of shit, and narrowly avoided direct confrontation late at night from a group of 3 young men/teens. A 130 pound trans woman fumbling with her keys to remote unlock (and then immediately lock once inside) her car vs 3 testosterone riddled cisgender males? Woulda been a good time I'm sure.

Trans people have been hidden in shadow and or marginalized forever in the West. Many are pushed out of the work force. Many trans folk turn to sex work, to which no protections are in place, no legal brothels or anything wherein they would have a system to work in and place to eat and sleep. Something like half of homeless youth are LGBTQ in one or more ways. 41% of trans youth attempt suicide. Trans women, especially of color, are murdered in droves.
You do not know about the subject you're so fervently speaking on. Check your privilege. That's not rhetoric. Take a sec and consider your own reality. You cannot relate to any of this - you'll not have to experonce the oppressing atmosphere that surrounds being a trans person, nor the fear we have - with good reason to have it.

Also, as to discomfort in a change/shower room at a gym? Presumably patrons are adults yes? Here's an idea.  Fucking grow up. Sex ed was a long time ago for most people alive. Can't believe in the modern world people are still shocked and appalled by the human body.

This whole bathroom bill shit really bring out the true colors and fear mongering huh

Last edited by Pilgrim Paige (Fri-27-May-2016 09:15:42)

I guess the thing is right now most people haven't seen a transgender person and alot of people are grossed out about it.  I'm not, but know many people are. Most people don't understand it at all or are just generally confused about the whole thing. I mean we are talking about changing the biological make up of a human being here. So generally there is going to be a lot of confusion about it. When you run into someone though who may be wrong on stuff, the best way to get through to them is to calmy educate them about transgender people. Most people don't know alot of that stuff that you put in your post Paige.

Yeah... I honestly don't give a shit if someone is trans gender. Just like o don't give a shit if someone is gay. I have no need to do research because I genuinely don't care. People can be what they want to be. Can't even say I pay attention to who uses toilets either as I'm really not interested - I do what I need to and leave. The pope could be using the same bathroom as me and I wouldn't notice or care.

With the ID thing, the bank was in the right. If you've changed your look and ID, and not the name on your bank account, and you dont take in proof that you've legally changed your name, then that's not on the bank. I legally changed my last name when o was 17, and until my bank changed my details, I took in the proof that I had done so. Else how would they know? Take your word for it? Wouldn't be a good bank if they did that and your money could be withdrawn by almost anyone. Basically they didn't think it through, couldn't prove that they'd changed their name and so cried about it.

And too right some people would feel uncomfortable showing with a trans gender person who hasn't had an op. There are guys that get hard at the slightest sight of boobs, so they'd be very embarrassed at that if they have what looks like a woman showering with them.

I don't get why anyone would care who's using the bathroom with them, as I don't get why anyone would look. That's what cubicles are for. Showering though, I understand and accept that people have reasons for being uncomfortable that have nothing to do with being against teams gender people. Doesn't bother me, but I can understand why some would.

The southern states in the USA are introducing a ton of really really crappy and shockingly intolerant laws. It always has to be the south too right? Not only are they targeting transgender people they are attack homosexuals too with the religious freedom laws. I'm going to make a separate thread for that BS in the future. These states are going to risk losing federal funding though if they continue to do these things. I don't think these laws are going to stand.

I guess the thing is right now most people haven't seen a transgender person and alot of people are grossed out about it.  I'm not, but know many people are. Most people don't understand it at all or are just generally confused about the whole thing. I mean we are talking about changing the biological make up of a human being here. So generally there is going to be a lot of confusion about it. When you run into someone though who may be wrong on stuff, the best way to get through to them is to calmy educate them about transgender people. Most people don't know alot of that stuff that you put in your post Paige.

A) Everyone, and I mean everyone, has seen and most likely talked to (or down to) trans people. Simply put, you just may not have realized it at the time. Many are still in the closet. Many will never get to come out.

B) You just made my point. Many people don't know a thing about trans people, but here I am, yet again, reading paragraph after paragraph of intense opinion from someone without the necessary familiarity to speak knowledgably about the thing they have such a decidedly strong opinion on.

Hey - any straight guys here ever been called a fag? Now, take that feeling, pretend it's capable of burning into a big part of who you are, then realize that's still utterly unrelated to gender, and that there are entire subreddits and 4chan whatevers dedicated to creating transphobic posters and wall art that encourages, with sincerity, trans folks to commit suicide, even using stats like the one I gave and stating that that number needs to go up.
You will never know what's that's like. No one can attack your sexuality or gender and have a lasting personal, social and/or legal effect. Trans people didn't spring from holes in the ground. We've always been here. People rise up. Demand equality. Forcing a trans man into a women's room for any reason isn't equal. Not recognizing that there's more than two gender identitys is pitifully behind the times.  Most cultures have us whooped in that area. Hell, a lot of other places have gender neutral bathrooms. To my understanding less sexual/violent crimes take place in such. Hmm, could it be that re-enforcing tired, longstanding "perspective" on gender and the ways it is addressed is hindering progress? Ya don't say!

Well the last post he made wasn't really that intense or really even that offensive really... It's odd that so many people got behind homosexual people here in the States and now they can legally get married. But there isn't that type of support for the people who are transgender.

Yeah... I honestly don't give a shit if someone is trans gender. Just like o don't give a shit if someone is gay. I have no need to do research because I genuinely don't care. People can be what they want to be. Can't even say I pay attention to who uses toilets either as I'm really not interested - I do what I need to and leave. The pope could be using the same bathroom as me and I wouldn't notice or care.

The research is for knowledge. Open your mind up rather than being dismissive about a highly oppressed minority that you've taken do much time to speak on.

And too right some people would feel uncomfortable showing with a trans gender person who hasn't had an op. There are guys that get hard at the slightest sight of boobs, so they'd be very embarrassed at that if they have what looks like a woman showering with them.

This is on society / men, not women / trans women. Women are so hyper sexualized in your country, and men just can't ever shoulder the responsibility of being mature and conducting themselves with respect. Hard at the slightest sight of boobs - indeed. Part of the problem. Social perspective on the human body needs to change. You go in a public shower in Europe somewhere you'll be thought of being like a horny kid getting hard at nudity in a non sexual environment.

Also. ... we all do remember that gay and bi and pan and so on people exist yeah? Should gay men have to use the women's room? Showers? See that's the thing. This is all ultimately coming back to a fear of sexual predators and sexual discomfort (oh no! Those are the wrong genitals I say! Help! Help!), right? If gay people don't have to prove anything or be separated from where they feel they belong, why trans people? Being trans isn't even a sexual thing. Hell, far from it. This is for me - my comfort, what I see inside and need to express outside. My genitals are no more your business than yours are mine.

To be devils advocate here, some people would say when your a man your a man no matter what. When your a woman your a woman no matter what. That's what many say/

I'm not transgender so I don't know l the mind set. If you don't mind me asking what was it that made you realize that you are a female and not a male?

Well the last post he made wasn't really that intense or really even that offensive really... It's odd that so many people got behind homosexual people here in the States and now they can legally get married. But there isn't that type of support for the people who are transgender.

It doesn't surprise me really. Gay rights have been a looong time coming - so have trans rights. But this ass backward oppressive society was quicker to give in on what people wanna do with others than what they do exclusively for themselves. Gay rights activists have ultimately just been visible much longer, and it took decades to bear much fruit. No one wanted to acknowledge trans people as, well, people, so our rights movement has been a slower climb. If not for modern means of communication, social media and the like, we'd be much further behind still. That said, trans folks now are roughly where gay folks were in the mid-80s. Begrudgingly acknowledged by society/law, some knowledge getting out there but mostly a lot of misinformation and fear mongering, still getting attacked verbally, physically, being killed in shocking numbers. So on. Sorry to sound disaffected, I've just spent much time and thought already - anything, sadly, can become all too familiar. Also, sadly again, a side effect of social revolution in this era of social media is the prominence of trends, buzz words and so on... I think a lot of uninitiated folks really do hear "transgender rights" and think of trans people as something new or a trend, a way to get attention - having no idea what the reality of attention we get is and not realizing that there is great meaning and value behind every term we fight to integrate into common speech and so on.
Ive deprived myself of sleep over this. Could be worse. Nice to get the brain juices flowing, even if I am overwhelmed of late.

I'm not transgender so I don't know l the mind set. If you don't mind me asking what was it that made you realize that you are a female and not a male?

It's both a gradual build up of things and a sudden realization, it was for me anyway. Growing up here, I never knew at all about trans people or even sexual preferences. The latter came in my teens. Long story short :
-Always felt different / didn't fit with the mold of boys and boy stuff
-Like so many "boys" was always was discouraged from partaking of activities, hobbies, behaviors, mannerisms considered by our society / my parents / boys who would ultimately prove straight and cisgender, anything considered girly / feminine
-Always wondered what it's like to be a girl: thought all boys did.
-Learned about some sexualit stuff in high school / explored / told friends / one or more "friends" outed me as bisexual.
-started exploring makeup and other gender-non conforming things. One time even dressed in drag. Felt nice being complimented as "pretty" by friend
-Felt / thought (never letting myself think it directly) things pertaining to the idea of becoming a woman
-Learned about transitioning around 2010 maybe. Confused/lacked details/didn't know gender and sexuality are not necessarily linked at all. A friend came out as FtM (female to male). Learned more.
-Went on feeling shit / repressing / hearing inside, when I'd want to have or do or say something distinctly considered feminine "You're not a girl! / that's not for boys!" That internal lifelong repression ran deep.
-Opened up to trans friend about jealousy/envy toward women. Still didn't put all the pieces together. Even after making a near direct statement once, it stayed shut away til 2014.  I was at work. It came. "I want to be a woman" (in my head, I did say it out loud). Had to go sit in stock room a while.
-Slowly started coming out to a few friends/family and compartmentalized what to do next. Got referred to gender specialist, shaved face, made GTA Online avatar and lived vicariously through her a while, being happy to be referred to with feminine pronouns by online contacts. Eventually got a wig (hair was shortish) and breast forms, my own place, on hormones etc. Now I'm here! Legally female and proud to be trans. I don't hide it at all. Waiting on my True Trans Soul Rebel shirt to come in fact.

Edit : just noting how hard it is to write via my phone, which I must of late!

Last edited by Pilgrim Paige (Fri-27-May-2016 10:34:27)

So what gender are you attracted too? If it's females are you now considered a lesbian?

More stuff that I and many folks hope will change in the future.

I say pansexual, basically. So basically - don't care, attracted to a person first. Don't care what's in your pants. What's in the head has infinitely more potential to interest me. It seems, in embracing my feminine self, I'm mostly attracted to women. Dunno if the hormones play into that, I'd guess a little. My sexual interests and drive have changed a lot. I have a girlfriend. She's trans too. I hope to see rigid sexual orientation labels kinda fizzle out with time. People are people. Find a person, or persons, who you click with and feel mutually that you can experience fulfillment with and go forth with that. I struggle to grasp sexual or, yes, gender rigidity. I know my respective sexual and gender identities. But I don't see that anyone is 100% anything - and not when referring to a social standard for sure. No man is 100% masculine. If not for physical sex, it seems people who identify straight can see attractiveness in others of the same sex or whatever. Besides, as I said, the binary needs to go. Man and woman? Please. I'll take men, women, trans men, trans women, gender queer, bigender, two spirit, gender fluid, androgyne over the binary. Go have a look at Bill Kaulitz or Brian Molko. Miyavi. These are people who identify male, were assigned male at birth (Penis - so doctor and/or parents deemed "boy!" and set about restricting their expression to what they feel a boy should be, as with so many parents in North America / Britain ) but tend to express in a non confirming, ambiguous way. Hell just think of David Bowie. Love androgyny / gender non confirming folk. So, what if you look at a guy and feel a pang of attraction? World won't end. People need to calm down and explore their own stuff before troubling about others' sexuality. Not to imply you were rude or unwelcome to ask, I encourage questions about all this stuff. Just remember that gender identity doesn't affect sexuality. I was pan before, I am now. A trans woman who'd lived in the past outwardly as a straight guy still will like guys. Mind, as I said, medical transition  (hormones etc) may affect interests to a degree, or I think so anyway. My experience / interpretation.

Edit: I will note I occasionally like the lesbian label, internally, mainly just 'cause to me it kinda just means woman + woman, and to me that's inherently awesome! *shrug* Women rule!  Plus the word lesbian is kinda cool. But again - people are people first. Identify however you feel is comfortable. Its when you get into actually mentally separating people into categories and treating them different from there that shit goes wrong.

Last edited by Pilgrim Paige (Fri-27-May-2016 11:18:07)

Thanks for all your answers Paige! I would like to post some more topics that are controversial in the future. As long as everyone is respectful towards each other and it doesn't get out of hand, I think it would make for some good discussion. There's another bs law that states in the south are starting to pass, the religious freedom laws, I feel pretty passionate about getting those abolished. I'll make a new thread some other time for that can of worms.

I haven't read all of this so I may be repeating points already made. I skimmed a couple of posts.

At the risk of offending Paige, which is why i
i don't usually have an opinion on this stuff, my view is this:

Yes, I understand the whole "just because someone has a penis doesn't make them a man per se" argument but logistically, you need to choose the toilet based on your genitals.

Realistically, do you expect a block of 8 or 9 toilets covering every possibility from "male with penis" "woman with penis" "pre op" "post op" "trans but not planning on having op"...

So realistically, we will only ever have men, women's and possibly a third option with toilets (not including disabled toilets).

I mean you tore Benj apart saying he knew nothing about trans because he assumed everyone had an op or wanted to. 1) so did I, since I thought the whole point was that you were the opposite sex born into the body you have and 2) what Ben said was not meant offensively but it seems lile you took it as such.

My thing is, if you identify as a man use the men's or if you identify as a woman use the womens. You'll probably get some looks or maybe the odd comment from less tolerant people but there's no escaping that. There will always be people who don't understand transgender/transexual issues, unfortunately, and while I sympathize and don't discriminate, I don't pretend to know the ins and outs of it all.

There's no easy solution to it, and most people will never understand your daily struggle with the transition, but some compromise has to be made with the bathroom situation that not everyone will be happy about.

Helps over here Rhys that if you want the op, you can get it. It's like 2 years living as the opposite sex and you can get it done for free.

That's how it should be everywhere really. Just another reason the NHS is the way forward.

Yeah the NHS is great. Has its flaws like everything, but overall it's better than the alternative.

And too right some people would feel uncomfortable showing with a trans gender person who hasn't had an op. There are guys that get hard at the slightest sight of boobs, so they'd be very embarrassed at that if they have what looks like a woman showering with them.

This is on society / men, not women / trans women. Women are so hyper sexualized in your country, and men just can't ever shoulder the responsibility of being mature and conducting themselves with respect. Hard at the slightest sight of boobs - indeed. Part of the problem. Social perspective on the human body needs to change.

It's really not. Men are wired to work that way, it's not a choice. There's really no changing how a man will look at a boob.

B) You just made my point. Many people don't know a thing about trans people, but here I am, yet again, reading paragraph after paragraph of intense opinion from someone without the necessary familiarity to speak knowledgably about the thing they have such a decidedly strong opinion on.

Well that's a two-way street. You're talking very strongly about straight males for someone who has never been one. And it's fine, carry on telling us why we're wrong. We've been hated for being straight, white and male by every ethnicity, gender alignment and sexuality there is, we're always the bad guy. Which in a lot of cases is totally justified, we have been shitty over the years, and that's something we'll never be able to put right. Look at the whole reparation deal, black people claiming money from white people because of slavery 200 years ago. The centuries of oppression will never be ok. But whatever, we're the bad guys so we'll take it. I guess that's our privilege.

-Always felt different / didn't fit with the mold of boys and boy stuff
-Like so many "boys" was always was discouraged from partaking of activities, hobbies, behaviors, mannerisms considered by our society / my parents / boys who would ultimately prove straight and cisgender, anything considered girly / feminine
-started exploring makeup and other gender-non conforming things. One time even dressed in drag. Felt nice being complimented as "pretty" by friend
-Went on feeling shit / repressing / hearing inside, when I'd want to have or do or say something distinctly considered feminine "You're not a girl! / that's not for boys!" That internal lifelong repression ran deep.

So a straight male having a sexual attraction to a female body is a failing of society, but you'll change who you are because of a strictly-defined societal gender role? Sounds to me like the problem isn't men and women being men and women, the problem is anyone who says girls can't play football. You're right that society has a lot of growing up to do, but not for the reasons you're giving.

About bathrooms:

Disagree entirely. "Logistically"? Nope. Gendered bathrooms have always been a bad idea, re enforcing the old binary gender norm, Re enforcing in women that men are not to be trusted and re enforcing in men that it's totally fine to go on with a juvenile bent, seeing women as so "other" that they must not be known to have normal bodily functions. Haha, periods though, am I right?!
Gender neutral bathrooms everywhere, I say. Are people who are lucky enough to be cisgender / socially considered acceptable  within the gender binary (men/women) really so afraid of this change? Will men super-miss openly peeing right next to another guy? Will women really feel LESS safe and fear men more if put in closer quarters with them in a bathroom whose traffic flow will basically eliminate opportunities for the few pervz you may come across to get up to no good? Sigh. A room with stalls and sinks and no prerequisites that presume over everyone's identity, person or genitals please. You know. Equality. Thanks!

About being able to get "the op" as folks apparently call SRS / GRS, it's great you can it covered on your piece of the Earth. Not so in North America. However,your system is based on re enforcing the gender binary and doesn't account for anyone outside of it who experiences genital dysphoria and feels SRS would remedy that. How does one "prove" theyve been living as "the opposite" (again, binary BS that many cultures would laugh in your face about) sex for 2 years anyway? Have to become legally male or female? See that's the thing with the binary. If you don't identify on the binary, the law and social conscience have no room for you. Can't legally be "other" or "NB" instead of "M" or "F". Can't legally be a Mx. instead of a Mr
or Ms. So someone non binary but with severe dysphoria would have to legally become something they're not in order to have done an operation they feel would eliminate much inner grief and turmoil? If it's about somwthing other than bein legally this or that, how does a legal body quantify one's gender identity and express ion?  It's all absurd. No one's going to fucking abuse a system like this! Become legally female and get SRS and then be like "haha fooled you I'm a dude!" And don't say it's for our sake and to ensure that we make an informed decision. We know who we are and what we want and aren't gonna just up and make a decision like that wit no prior consideration.

Being trans isn't "about" anything other than embracing oneself the way one sees fit. It's not about becoming a man or woman, it's about the freedom to feel and express your gender identity however you feel and express it. This shit needs to apply to kids, too. Sick of people saying kids don't know what they want at all. Jesus. I'm not ssyon go out and get your prepubescent child SRS. I'm talking about the very roots of dysphoria and social anxiety in trans folk, about why so many struggle to come out. Beyond the obvious overall social standing, realize how that affects parenting. In places that abide by a binary,you get shit like this:
Couple wants to have baby. Woman or surrogate gets pregnant.
Scan or whatevrr shows penile development in womb. Break out the blue!!! It's a boy!!
Before fucking birth presuming over a child's identity.
Baby is born
Baby has Penis
Doctor and parents declare "it's a boy"
Parents raise "boy" (never "child") to do and think and feel and say and act in socially agreed upon (primitive, limited, relies -on-binary) ways. If the child likes dresses or dolls, discourage this and chide them for it. Repeat til high school grad.

And don't tell me parents do it to protect their child from unfair treatment. The parenting is influenced by the binary, overly gendered society we live in and shuts down the child's creative and leaves them with a lot of unanswered questions about themselves and mixed up feelings later in life. 41%  of trans youth , this mainly referring to teens, attempt suicide. This is not acceptable. It all starts at the root. People and indeed parents majorly need to be educated about all this stuff. Could save all of lives, heartache and help usher in a new Era of mental health.

Yes I get very passionate and "confrontational" about all this. You can't see it from inside the issue, I assure you I am quite restrained.

It's really not. Men are wired to work that way, it's not a choice. There's really no changing how a man will look at a boob.

Go to a country where nude beaches are the norm and the hot weather brings on long stretches of people in scant clothing. Where are all the boners? No joke. Go to Europe in summer. By your statement every straight or bi male should be erect. Not the case. At all. It's not hard wired for men to be in permanent horndog mode. It's a cultural thing. Repression breeds immaturity and misconduct. On another slant, it breeds depression and oppression.

Well that's a two-way street. You're talking very strongly about straight males for someone who has never been one. And it's fine, carry on telling us why we're wrong. We've been hated for being straight, white and male by every ethnicity, gender alignment and sexuality there is, we're always the bad guy. Which in a lot of cases is totally justified, we have been shitty over the years, and that's something we'll never be able to put right. Look at the whole reparation deal, black people claiming money from white people because of slavery 200 years ago. The centuries of oppression will never be ok. But whatever, we're the bad guys so we'll take it. I guess that's our privilege.

Til straight male are getting killed for being straight males, forced out of the work world for being straight males, being marginalized, oppressed (lacking rights) and so on, don't talk all hurt about how poor straight men are treated. Check your privilege. That's not a fun quote for me BTW. It means somwthing. It doesn't mean feel shame. It means get aware of your position in the bigger picture of society and realize you've got it as good as it gets by default, the coincidence of your socoal acceptability. Youre a straight white male chux? It comes with a lot of privilege the majority of people (categorically considered minorities incidentally) will never know.

So a straight male having a sexual attraction to a female body is a failing of society, but you'll change who you are because of a strictly-defined societal gender role? Sounds to me like the problem isn't men and women being men and women, the problem is anyone who says girls can't play football. You're right that society has a lot of growing up to do, but not for the reasons you're giving.

I'm not changing who I am. I'm embracing who I am. Nothing to do with how society sees me. It was because of how society and people close to me, including parents, friends,  all view/viewed what I must be outwardly based on dated standards and presumed would be best/right/acceptable for me based on those presumptions and standards. That shit is driven into us from birth, and is not easy to eliminate and move on with ones self, especially when one knows how society en mass feels about/treats people who are outwardly different. It's a self sustaining system of oppression. Teach people being this or that is wrong / bad / a sin / perverse / abnormal, influence how they raise the next generation, pray that the system of oppression holds up forever. It never does, but God damn it's aimed for. Lot of folks are only now *hearing * about trans folks and trest us like a new thing or a fad. That takes intense systemic holding down of an entire aspect of human development - right from the root - limiting people's exposure to it -which by nature includes both those who wilingly support the oppression AND those who would otherwise be aware of their truth and shine a light on it. Self sustaining system. Only now failing, in the post-2000s. Unbelievable.

Okay I'm going to stop commenting cos clearly anyone who doesn't agree with everything you say "doesn't know what their talking about" or "doesn't understand"

No, I don't  understand what its like to be trans but you are just like everyone else, nothing special, and I won't give anyone special treatment.

If you want a specialised toilet, build one
Otherwise, use the same toilets everyone else does. Gender toilets are there for good reason. Just like you feel uncomfortable going into a male toilet, I would feel the same in one of your dual gender toilets.

"Before fucking birth presuming over a child's identity."

Of course, because to not do that would be idiotic.

When my son was born I didn't think "I know, I'll treat him like a genderless child until he tells me he's a boy" because that's stupid.

99% of people are not born into the wrong body. So why would anyone with a sane mind think their child would be different.